Transcript: Roger Federer is too nice for documentaries

This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘Roger Federer is too nice for documentaries’

Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking about tennis legend Roger Federer. The Swiss player is one of the greatest athletes of all time, and a new documentary was released on Amazon Prime about him this week. It’s called 12 Final Days, and it follows Federer from the day he announces his retirement in September of 2022 through the last match he plays professionally 12 days later at the Laver Cup. It features intimate moments with his family and with his biggest rivals who are at the Cup too. Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. This is also an exciting time to talk tennis because it’s a summer full of it. The film Challengers was a huge hit, tennis core is a fashion trend and Wimbledon starts on July 1st. So let’s get into it. I’m Lilah and I want to say to the game of tennis, I love you and I will never leave you. Joining me from London, rolling in on the Fed Express, we have deputy arts editor Raphael Abraham, Raph is a Nadal fan first and foremost, but he’s put these feelings aside for today. Hi, Raph.

Raphael Abraham
I will do my best.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Also in London, I think he just whispered something to Djokovic that made him cry, it’s the FT’s chief features writer Henry Mance. Hi, Henry. Welcome.

Henry Mance
Hey.

Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, so let’s get into it. What did you both think of the documentary, top line? You know, is it a thumbs up or thumbs down? Raph.

Raphael Abraham
Well, look, I’m a huge tennis fan. I love Federer dearly as much as I’m a Nadal fan. You know, I can’t resist the Fed. But as a documentary, I didn’t think that much of it to be honest. You know, I think it’s great, it’s fan service and it’ll make Federer diehards happy and the man, himself, happy. But as a kind of piece of documentary, it’s pretty basic, I would say.

Henry Mance
Raph is only saying that because he’s not actually a Federer diehard and doesn’t love the guy enough. But I do love the guy a lot. And I agree that this was kind of a documentary that didn’t get out of second gear.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Oh, yeah. Why? In what way?

Henry Mance
I think, I mean, the clue is in the title, really. It’s sort of 12 Final Days, and it’s about this moment at the end of Federer’s career. He had been struggling with a lot of injury problems. He’s gone on longer than anyone thought into his early 40s. And then he finally realises, you know, his knee isn’t going to allow him to play at top level. And he sort of fixates on one thing that he can do, which is another edition of the Laver Cup. But none of that is actually that exciting, you know? But the problem is the premise, right? That this is not him trying to reach a summit in his career. This is not really one of the great tournaments he’ll be remembered for. It’s a very slick kind of PR event with a lot of, you know, PR events around it. It will confirm your belief that Roger Federer is an incredibly composed, mature guy who is not unbalanced like a lot of sports people. But that doesn’t make for great cinema.

Raphael Abraham
No.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes. Yeah, I think that’s right. The stakes felt really low. At the beginning of the of the film, he’s just kind of pacing around in this corporate, sanitised, high-rise waiting to drop his retirement message on Instagram. And it’s sort of 15 minutes where you’re thinking, oh God, is this what the whole thing is gonna be? Is this what the energy is? But I did find that once he got to the Laver Cup and you could watch him talk about tennis and respond to reporters and interact with these people that he’s been rivals and sort of colleagues with for decades, I was starting to feel like, OK, I like the chance to hear them sort of talk honestly about what it’s like to be in competition.

Raphael Abraham
Yeah, I think the best stuff of the film is when you do get these kind of rare peeks behind closed doors. So you know, you’ve got footage of them in the locker room hanging out after Nadal and Federer play their, what is Federer’s final professional match. And they lose and, you know, and then there’s a huge outpouring of love and him bawling his eyes out. So you do get these moments where you see them behind the scenes talking about, you know, for instance, they talk about who’s got the most annoying grunt on the tour. And, you know, I think they actually forget the camera’s there and they, you know, they start sort of having a slightly more candid conversation. But those moments are pretty fleeting, really. You’ve kind of got away to, as Henry said, a lot of PR. You know, actually, I think a lot of the film is actually about PR and about how do you stage-manage something like this, like the end of a career?

Henry Mance
I think also, I got really sick of all the interiors, as . . . Lilah you say this with plush interiors of, you know, nice hotels. And, you know, you’re used to kind of training footage where, you know, someone’s caked in mud or, you know, having to run in the pouring rain or some kind of, you know, the sort of the physicality of sport bringing you into touch with, into contact with the earth or whatever. And, you know, Federer is just sort of surrounded by these very, you know, five-star furnishings the whole time, getting into a taxi.

Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s so clean.

Henry Mance
Yeah. So it’s not about, you know, winning or losing. And I basically, you know, the whole Federer story is, like, is one of complete beauty and, like, that’s what, you know, you really get some of the adoration of this graceful guy. But I started thinking, watching this, maybe there just isn’t a good documentary because he’s not going to completely forget the cameras are there for long enough, and he’s not gonna let the cameras in on his inner struggle.

Lilah Raptopoulos
No, no, exactly. He didn’t seem to actually, you know, really want to be filmed or give too much away on camera or even really want to be like a charismatic, famous person.

Raphael Abraham
I don’t know how much there is there kind of to discover. You know, I don’t know that there’s sort of great hidden layers to him. You know, I think with him, I think what you see seems to be what you get. We’ve had like, you know, more than 20 years of him and I don’t, there’s never been, there haven’t been any sort of moments of great revelation or, you know, controversy. But what I think was lacking from this film, above all, was tennis. There’s so little actual tennis in the film. Now I realise I’m coming at this from a, you know, tennis nerd perspective, and I would love to see a film that really delves deep into this beauty of his game and technical perfection everyone hints about, about including, you know, David Foster Wallace and John McEnroe and God in the World. But there’s so little of that. They kind of refer to it glancingly. And there are a few clips showing, you know, his immaculate tennis strokes and whatnot, which perhaps they think they’ll lose the kind of mainstream audience if they kind of go too deep into the weeds on that stuff. But I actually think people, if you can, you know, explain to them and show them what makes this man so special, I think they would be fascinated.

Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s true. It is also where he gets interesting, right? It’s like he started talking about tennis at one point. It was a short scene and how he said how in tennis they . . . It’s interesting because they . . . It’s not a contact sport, but they almost touch each other through the tennis ball. And that’s kind of what makes it interesting.

Henry Mance
I thought that was so cheesy.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Oh, you did?

Henry Mance
Like, that’s like, tennis is like the least contact of all sports. But what I liked about his description of tennis was when he said, when I play someone, I want to beat them at their own game. So if they go for long rallies, I’m like, fine, let’s do long rallies, and then I’ll beat you at those and then you’ll have nothing left. And I thought that was, you know, a real insight into how he plays. But I think the problem was we weren’t catching him in those moments of real drama. And one of the things he’s allowed to say in the film, which I think is not entirely correct, is that he never got as worked up as Djokovic or when he was losing, whereas as a young player, he was very temperamental, Federer. And, like, they never confronted him with that footage of him and saying, you know, who like, who were you? What happened to this guy? Did you just win enough that you didn’t feel sad?

Raphael Abraham
Which is one of the most fascinating things about him, that he transitioned from apparently being this incredible hothead who was smashing his racket and storming off the court, to being the most serene man since Bjorn Borg ever to step on a court. Yeah. They just they just, yeah, they ignored that entirely.

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Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, let’s talk about how this movie depicts Federer’s career and his legacy. So to start, why don’t we refresh listeners on what that legacy was? Henry, what was his playing style? What made him great?

Henry Mance
Yeah. Federer was a hugely fancied junior player. He then sort of hit the headlines by beating Sampras at Wimbledon, but himself got knocked out that year by Tim Henman, didn’t go on to win the tournament. And so it was a while before he broke through. But when he broke through, he was sort of unplayable, especially on the faster surfaces, especially on grass. And he did it all while looking like a ballet dancer. You know, you have this, beautiful glide and fantastic forehand, if you like, a single-handed backhand, which is now very out of fashion in tennis because it doesn’t generate the power and the spin that you need. But he did that single-handed backhand and he was, you know, regularly called the most talented, the greatest player. And I think that’s a little in question now that Djokovic and Nadal have passed his total of Grand Slams. But he has a spiritual connection to a lot of tennis fans. And he’s still, if you go to any tennis club in England or anywhere else, apart from maybe Serbia, then I think most people will say my favourite tennis player is Roger Federer.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right, right. He’s also known as sort of like effortless. And he’s sort of elegant. And he doesn’t grunt.

Henry Mance
Right. One of the things the film brings out is until he got injured at the end of his career, he basically didn’t get injured. Unlike other players, he didn’t seem to be injured. He didn’t seem to have to train quite as hard as them. And so I think that’s incredibly seductive.

Raphael Abraham
Yeah, I think, I mean, when we look for sort of the definition of genius, right, it’s the idea often that somebody who can just do things much more easily than others. And he’s always given that impression. I mean, I think he dislikes that somewhat. I think he argues against that because I think it’s, you know, it’s like that the sort of the swan analogy cliché, you know, he’s working very hard beneath the surface. And the footwork is impeccable. And that does not come back.

Henry Mance
It’s a duck, not a swan, isn’t it?

Raphael Abraham
He’s a swan. He’s a ballet dancer so he has to be a swan.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. He has to be a swan.

Raphael Abraham
I also think he’s one of the things that he sort of represents is this link between tennis’s past and present future, you know, because he so much instantly love with the history and tradition of the game. And he has this close connection to greats of the past like Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg and many others. And I think they see some of themselves in him with his more classical style of single-handed backhand and, you know, serve and volley that he can play. But actually, for the most part, he plays this power baseline game where he doesn’t come into the net necessarily that often. And, you know, that’s very much the game that we now see in, you know, 2010s and 2020s that sort of really took over. And I think he ushered in that era. It just happened that, you know, other players came along who could do that sometimes even better than him. But I think that’s why he’s kind of loved by people of all generations. And you can really see the sort of the mark he left on the game.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes. He’s also loved interpersonally for his friendship with Rafa Nadal. The two of them were rivals. They became buddies and they just seemed to love each other. And it’s very endearing. And it’s a big part of the film.

Henry Mance
Yeah. I think that, the Nadal stuff, it’s interesting. I mean, tennis is obviously a sport that is incredibly individual and people get very lonely and they feel there’s no one on their team. And especially, you know, some of the people who, you know, have their family member follow their uncle or mother as their coach, you know, feel kind of bullied into giving up playing, which is why you see some players kind of retire quite early. And so I think, you know, what Federer and Nadal found is, you know, are parallel careers and it sort of, it gave it meaning and it gave it community for them. So yeah, I think that tells you quite a bit about tennis.

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Lilah Raptopoulos
I want to ask you both about tennis now. It was clear that the players featured in this film — Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray — are presented as a bit past their prime. And it sort of depicts this bygone golden age of tennis, where there were these stars. And I’m curious what tennis looks like now. Are there stars like before? Is it different? What do you think?

Raphael Abraham
I would say, I mean, I think we’re definitely in a sort of transitionary phase. I mean, when the film was made, when the footage was shot of that Laver Cup in June 2022, I mean, Djokovic was still very much at the height of his powers. Now there’s a bit of a question of whether he’s starting to fade. It’s true that now Federer’s gone, Nadal seems to be playing his last season; Murray quite possibly as well. But, you know, I think there is a sort of anxiety around tennis generally, especially with Serena Williams also retiring. But I think there’s a real already there’s a, you know, a resurgence in sort of players coming, younger players coming through. So Carlos Alcaraz who’s just won his second or third Grand Slam. Jannik Sinner, who just won his first slam at the beginning of the year in Australia. And in the women’s game, you’ve got, a sort of new Big 3 emerging with Iga Świątek, who’s the world number one, kind of currently riding high. So I think sort of anxieties about, you know, suddenly all the big stars disappearing, are already fading. I think, you know, I think there’s a new crop coming up.

Henry Mance
Raph, you’ve met, you’ve interviewed Jannik Sinner for the FT. Is he celebrity documentary material?

Raphael Abraham
I mean, Jannik is a lovely guy. A very likeable young man. But, you know, the trouble with some of the young guys is they haven’t lived all that much, right? And we haven’t lived with them. Their life is they eat, sleep, breathe tennis, right? They’re all very well-behaved these days. And actually, I think we, Lilah, when you were talking about Federer’s legacy earlier, I think maybe one of his greatest, maybe his greatest legacy of all is this one of niceness. He brought a sort of level of niceness to the game, which is just, you know, unparalleled. I mean, and it’s almost a problem because, you know, when everyone is so nice to each other, there’s so little drama, there’s so little spice or grit, but, you know, it can make things a little bland. And, you know, this new crop of players on the whole, they do exude these incredibly professional, well-behaved, straightlaced niceness. Whereas if you dial it back to, you know, the 70s and Ilie Năstase and Connors and McEnroe and all those guys, you know, there was a little bit more bad behaviour on court and off, which I think kind of doesn’t hurt to kind of draw mainstream interest to the game.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Totally. I actually think, maybe my favourite part of the film, which maybe was unintentional, was kind of watching these players interact pretty awkwardly and realising that like, they are the best players in the world, but they’re also kind of awkward kids who have been in this weird tennis world for a really long time, and their jokes aren’t really totally landing, and they kind of find each other annoying, and they really were just drifting in and out of seeming powerful. You know, when Djokovic was telling Federer he was wearing the wrong shirt, he was wearing a tuxedo shirt instead of a suit shirt, and then Federer is like, you’re such an arsehole, and changes his shirt.

Raphael Abraham
That was, I thought that part was hilarious, especially because, and that was very much Federer waiting for Nadal to turn up. And he reminded me of like a nervous groom the night before his wedding, like, oh God, I’ve . . . And then Djokovic was like playing this best man role of saying, you’ve put on the wrong shirt. And Federer actually swears which is, which in itself is like maybe sort of, you know, the most shocking moment of the whole film and says, I better go and change. But, I mean, I thought that was very cute. But you’re right that they’re actually very goofy. You know, I think these guys live so much on the practice court, in the gym and tournaments that, you know, often they haven’t lived that much.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes, totally. So I want to ask you both about tennis and culture. It just seems to be killing it in pop culture this year. The film Challengers with Zendaya was a huge hit. There’s this tennis core fashion trend. I’m seeing a lot of pleated skirts and workout dresses on the street. It feels like a moment. And Wimbledon is starting in two weeks. And I was wondering what your advice would be for new fans who are just starting to get interested in tennis, but they’re getting into it through pop culture or through fashion.

Henry Mance
I think you’ve got to watch the matches. And I think what is fascinating is even like the, what seems like a sort of inconsequential first round game can turn out to be really exciting. I think anyone who’s been to Wimbledon in person will know that. Yeah, you’ve got the big courts where you might be lucky enough to see a big star. But actually on the outside courts, you have people who aren’t making huge amount of money, who are really hoping to make it big, on one stage maybe thought they were going to be, you know, one of the top players in the world, and they’re playing for their livelihood. And there’s real drama there, real kind of, at a very close proximity. And I think you get that if you watch what seems like an inconsequential match on TV as well. And you’ll see little flickers of people’s personality and little bits of frustration, and you’ll see the loneliness of the sport. And I think that is all incredibly thrilling for me. It’s a real, it requires such mental control to not let mistakes bother you, to go back time and time again and keep your discipline, to think, outthink your opponent, et cetera. So I think once you capture some of that, then. Yeah, obviously the biggest stage Wimbledon.

Henry Mance
Yeah. And I think if you and if you can go to see tennis live by people who really know how to play it, even at smaller tournaments, because I think the good thing about smaller tournament is you’re actually often sitting at court level much closer to the action. The first time I ever saw Nadal play was actually his first year at Wimbledon playing doubles. And seeing him thundering around this court at that time, he was like a specimen with these huge muscles. And I was literally sort of, you know, a couple of few metres from the guy. And honestly, you know, these guys’ athleticism and shot-making when you see it close in the flesh is something else. So I think if you can get to go to see it, a tennis tournament played at any kind of, you know, top 100 level is good enough. Or you can come and watch me and Henry play it at my local club.

Lilah Raptopoulos
I was going to say my last question is that, I heard you play each other at tennis.

Henry Mance
Yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
And I wanted to ask, who’s Rafa? Who is Federer?

Henry Mance
I’m Federer. I’m Federer. Let’s be clear here.

Raphael Abraham
You’ve got two-handed backhand, mate. I’ve got an elegant single-hander.

Henry Mance
I think Raph’s taking himself as Federer. I’m a lowly Nadal.

Raphael Abraham
I’m a pure elegance personified. I don’t think either of us could dream of comparing ourselves with . . . 

Henry Mance
Cam Norrie.

Raphael Abraham
I think I’d be happy with that.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Raph and Henry, thank you so much. This is so fun. We will be back in just a minute for More or Less.

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Welcome back for More or Less, the part of the show where each guest says one thing they want more of or less of in culture. Raph, what do you have?

Raphael Abraham
I want more Julio Torres, who I’ve just discovered. Yeah, this Salvadorean-American comedian who wrote for Saturday Night Live and he’s just made his debut film, which is called Problemista, which is absolutely, wildly original and crazy. And it co-stars Tilda Swinton as this kind of eccentric art critic. And he’s a toymaker trying to get residency in New York. And it’s just barmy. And, well, luckily for me, I heard he’s got a new TV show launching, just launched on HBO. So there is more Julio Torres immediately available. But, yeah, I would really recommend that movie.

Lilah Raptopoulos
His stand-up is some of my favourite too. If you YouTube him, his comedy is like so weird and good.

Raphael Abraham
I haven’t even got there yet, but I will check it out.

Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s a great one. Henry, what do you have?

Henry Mance
I have just read Rachel Kushner’s forthcoming novel, Creation Lake, and I really like that. It’s about a sort of commune rejecting modern society in the south of France, which is infiltrated by someone trying to, well, a provocateur trying to get them all in trouble and shut down. And so I would like more of her and fewer celebrity documentaries. I gotta stop spending my time watching celebrity documentaries, wait to find out which ones are good, and then in the meantime, read a novel.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Cool, cool. We’ll put all these in the show notes. Mine, simple. I want more, I want a more too. More boats. It’s summer and I recently moved and I take a ferry to work now some days, and it’s a delight. My mother called me recently, and she said that she bribed a fisherman to take her and my nieces and nephews for a ride on his boat, and he did it for 15 bucks a kid, and I thought that was a great deal. So, anyway, go bribe a fisherman and get on a boat and get on as many boats as you can in the summer. Raph and Henry, thank you both so much. This is so much fun. And please come back.

Raphael Abraham
Yeah. Great fun. Thank you so much for having me. Us.

Henry Mance
Thank you.

Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. If you don’t already, please do follow the show and take a look through our back catalogue where we have a lot of great conversations and interviews like this one. I’ve put some relevant links and places to find Raph and Henry’s work in the show notes. Every link that brings you to the FT gets you past the paywall. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos, and here is my talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco. With help this week from Odinn Ingibergsson and original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely weekend and we’ll find each other again on Monday.